02:48.3
Like the United States, mga Pinoys in Dubai, in Singapore, in Europe. And it was so fascinating na when I spoke Tagalog, the more I connected with people. Kaya, that's where it all started. Now, politics-wise, people think, like you mentioned nga, that I'm pink or dilawan. What they don't know is I didn't vote for Pinoy. I actually didn't like Pinoy. But I do appreciate what he's done for the country.
03:15.4
And then when the election time came along, I had very strong opinions kasi towards the candidates. And binase ko lang talaga yan on which candidate I thought was the best in terms of a criteria. And yun. Tapos, it's interesting lang kasi. I think people will perceive you or me or anyone according to their own biases.
03:40.4
Yan. May bias ka talaga.
03:45.4
And people saw what they wanted to see in the message I was trying to deliver. I do believe Lenny is the best candidate. But one thing that people were surprised is, nung tinanong ako what I thought would happen if BBM won, I actually didn't paint a doom and gloom picture.
04:05.6
I actually even said na, and I didn't post it until after he won. Because I didn't want anyone to, parang, siguro, maybe.
04:15.4
I didn't switch or anything. But I did say it na, I don't think BBM was going to be as bad as his father. I think BBM is not, I think he's just a spoiled brat na who just want, it's an ego thing. Being president is an ego thing for him. And that's it.
04:34.3
So there. So after that, tuloy-tuloy na. And suddenly people were just following me and I was like, wow. And they just wanted to hear my take on different topics, whether politics or showbiz or whatever it may be.
04:45.1
And that's how it all started.
04:48.1
Wait, wait, wait. Speaking of, we'll go to the entrepreneur part when we'll do the podcast episode on Bitcoin, maybe. You know, because this is at the cutting edge of entrepreneurship these days.
04:57.0
But let's talk about showbiz. If I'm not mistaken, like, if you go to YouTube and put Chris Tan, things pop up from nine years ago, yung mga umagang kay ganda, yung mga ganda.
05:07.8
What's the reality? I'm sorry, I don't want to bring back who got memories and all, but let's do it.
05:13.2
What's the dating reality?
05:15.1
What's the reality show you were part of before we go to the tuloy episodes?
05:19.8
So for 15 years, I was actually a producer of TV shows. A lot of people don't know that. I produced TV shows on different networks like ABC5 pa nung time na yun, hindi pa nga TV5. MTV, Studio 23, GMA. So I did a lot of TV shows for a lot of different networks.
05:40.8
Tapos noon, in 2015, I decided na parang, oh, why not go in front of the TV?
05:45.1
So I got it. One day, I got a call. Sabi lang, would you be interested in going on a reality show with my girlfriend that time? And sabi ko, yeah, why not? It's a good experience. It's something I wanted to experience as well. So I tried it out. Okay naman. And then after that, they just started inviting me for all these different shows.
06:04.6
Wait, Chris, sorry. What was this show again?
06:08.2
It's called I Do.
06:10.0
Ah, okay. So can you give us an idea? What was the concept? What was the idea behind it?
06:14.0
So the concept of the show was they got these couples, parang eight of us, I think, or nine, who wanted to get married. Tapos the winner will get the wedding of their dreams, one million pesos, a house and lot, a business, the works, shabang, and the lights, and all the glamour in it. Yeah, so that's what happened. And then when I was at the finals na, ako yung nag-back out.
06:44.0
You thought you might win it?
06:45.8
Yeah, yeah. I actually probably would have won it. And I realized I didn't want to get married that time. So ayun.
06:52.4
I mean, of course, I'm not sure. There's a way around it, right? Like you get the prize and then you find a quack lawyer to sign some notary. I don't know. I'm sure you can be entrepreneurial about it. Sorry, Dave, but I mean, it's just wondering the sayang yung prize.
07:10.1
Well, I never really did it kasi for the prize. It was really because I just wanted, you know, I wanted to get married and I wanted to do it in the most unique way possible. So I thought, oh, this would be a good way.
07:23.1
But in that, yung sa, siguro mga one month ata kami naka-lock-in, yung one month na yun, parang nag-couples weekend, pero one month, then you realize talaga.
07:36.8
Oo, marami kami na-realize about ourselves.
07:40.1
And we just ended up as friends after that.
07:43.2
Yeah, again, I'm sorry. I didn't want to bring out the hugot at all. I just wanted a refresher.
07:48.6
Was this also the time na sumisigat yung mga Chinoy? I mean, like the Korean K-pop? And like, this is around 10 years ago, right?
07:55.1
Because I remember back in the day when I was a kid, it's more like mestizo, mexicano.
08:01.0
And then 10 years later, it's transitioning to mga chinito.
08:03.9
I saw that in my own lifetime, yung preferences and all that shit.
08:07.8
So I'm just saying, probably a part of you as a producer.
08:10.1
Felt, hey, maybe there's a niche for me, right? Like, to make it big.
08:15.0
Well, you know, I never really looked at it na parang kung ano ba yung flavor of the year or the month.
08:19.3
Kasi hindi ko talaga napansin ko na meron na, pero hindi yun yung motivation for me.
08:24.4
But it's, you know, I'm not complaining.
08:27.4
I think it's amazing that K-pop is doing so well and that they're able to export the music and entertainment worldwide.
08:36.2
It's fantastic what it can do for Asians.
08:38.4
I'm so impressed with what they did.
08:40.3
And then, you know, suwerte na lang ako, I guess, na mukha kong chinito ako.
08:44.3
So I can pass as Korean, Japanese, Chinese, whatever.
08:49.4
No, I mean, the reason I'm asking this, I mean, we'll go into this more in the next episode
08:53.2
when we talk about your experiences at Chinoy in this very, you know, charged moment.
08:59.0
But, you know, I'm just saying, you know, things are, I mean, as an Asian, you know, I can pass off as a Mexican.
09:05.8
But as an Asian, like, I feel finally the Asian men are getting the kind of, you know.
09:10.1
The appreciation they have to deserve.
09:11.9
Because we grew up, you know, with all these blonde, blue-eyed men, you know, as the matinee idol.
09:17.1
And like, you know, and they're like low-quality copycats, you know.
09:21.6
And I just felt that's something.
09:22.7
But we can go to that later, perhaps in the next episode.
09:25.1
Medyo, I mean, oh my goodness, I don't want to use the term interracial discussions.
09:29.5
But let's stick to this.
09:31.0
Okay, so ano yung pinakaunang episode na biglang boom, nakita mo grabe yung response?
09:37.2
At talagang, ano yun?
09:38.7
Parang meron kang instinctive.
09:40.1
Instinctive moment na, ay, kailangan ko mag-Tagalog para maka-reach out sa mga tao.
09:44.2
And your Tagalog is less Konya than mine.
09:46.5
Ako, nakikita na tao, I'm still trying to reach out.
09:49.4
But my Ilocan is better than my Tagalog accent-wise.
09:52.6
But can you tell me about, what was that first vlog na went boom?
09:56.6
And then your whole political blogger career started?
10:00.6
So, yung ano, yung ano, first vlog ko na talagang pumotok was the one where sinabi ko,
10:06.8
So, parang I described kung paano pumili ng kandidato for president.
10:11.4
Kung ano dapat yung tama.
10:12.7
And then I gave the criteria kung ano ba yung hinahanap natin lahat for president to make a good president.
10:18.8
And then, tuloy-tuloy, at the end of it, I was eliminating all the candidates.
10:23.0
And then at the end, sinabi ko, kaya.
10:24.7
And then the title pala was, I'm not voting for Lenny Robredo.
10:29.0
Was that a clickbait?
10:30.6
Knowing that your followers could be pro-Lenny.
10:33.3
So, I didn't do it as a clickbait.
10:36.5
I did it more because I was trying to make a point na hindi ko binoboto si Lenny because she's Lenny.
10:43.0
I'm voting for her because of the qualifications I was looking for, for a president.
10:50.6
As a matter of fact, I even made a disclaimer na originally, I didn't like Lenny.
10:56.9
I remember yung first time ko nakita yung post na nag-picture na magbabush siya papuntang Naga.
11:03.3
And I was like, I don't know, it looks so staged to me.
11:06.5
I don't know, there's something...
11:08.3
I know what you're saying.
11:11.1
Parang cringy yung dating na yung sa akin.
11:13.4
Pero nung then I got to know her better and then I listened to yung mga sinasabi niya.
11:17.2
And I was like, no, this girl's making sense, sabi ko.
11:20.0
Plus, kung tinignan mo yung field of candidates sa man, alam mo, everyone had their strengths.
11:27.1
Manny Pacquiao, his heart.
11:28.8
Yeah, Lakson, his experience.
11:30.2
Lakson, yeah, experience, the discipline.
11:33.5
He did a lot sa Manila in the short time that he had.
11:36.5
Yeah, so I didn't really have anything against any of the candidates.
11:42.1
It was just more of a, tignan natin anong meron nila and then process of elimination.
11:45.8
And then at the end of it, sabi ko, if you look at it, the complete package was Lenny.
11:49.8
The irony was this, I think why it went viral.
11:53.9
I think the title, alam mo kasi it's ironic that a lot of people don't read or don't watch the whole video anymore.
12:02.4
They look at the headline and then they'll start sharing it based on the headline.
12:06.5
So apparently, what happened was, a lot of the supporters of BBM were sharing my video.
12:12.1
Sabi ko nga, clickbait yan eh.
12:15.0
Trojan horse yan.
12:17.0
Diba? Trojan horse, kala nila.
12:19.4
And then people were watching it and then napapabura yung mga supporters ni BBM sa akin.
12:23.7
So I got a lot of bashers.
12:26.0
And my own video, I did not get as many views on my own video as the people that shared it on TikTok.
12:33.9
Yung TikTok, nakita ko may dalawang account doon.
12:37.6
Each of them got at least 10 million to 15 million.
12:42.3
And I was like, wow.
12:43.9
Yeah, business was good.
12:45.3
Business was good.
12:46.3
Yeah, and I didn't even post it on my TikTok.
12:48.8
So eventually, I went to TikTok after mga 3 or 4 months.
12:52.0
Pumasok na rin ako ng TikTok.
12:53.4
So that's how it all started.
12:55.6
And it was weird eh.
12:57.0
When I woke up and I was looking at my phone, my phone was off the hook.
13:00.4
It was just, bam, bam, bam, bam, notification.
13:02.6
At ngayon na, nakasilent na lang ako palagi.
13:04.6
There's no more point.
13:06.5
But putting the notification on.
13:07.9
Kasi otherwise, we'll never get anything done.
13:10.7
Yeah, I mean, the geniuses, the PhD in computer science and physics,
13:16.1
all of them are working on ways to hack our mind, right?
13:18.6
So take out the notification.
13:20.2
For me, honestly, I see social media as an outlet, not inlet, right?
13:26.0
It's for me to get the message out and then I don't want to do anything with this world.
13:29.8
You cut it out, right?
13:31.0
So that's why I can manage it, calibrate it.
13:33.7
Not to mention, you need digital Sabbath or actual Sabbath.
13:36.5
Now, let's go back to this.
13:37.7
I mean, obviously, in my case, I was very apolitical in a sense.
13:44.2
I was always more concerned about international affairs, global affairs.
13:47.8
You know, those are the things that excited me when I was as young as like five, six-year-old.
13:51.2
I was talking about Iraq war, et cetera.
13:53.3
So that was how I grew up.
13:54.5
So I always felt about Philippine politics like, oh my goodness, eh, mga dynasties.
13:59.8
It's like juvenile, puerile.
14:02.6
Like, you know, it gives a bad name to democracy.
14:04.4
And sometimes I felt this.
14:06.3
It's like a hopeless case.
14:07.7
And then Pinoy came and I felt, okay, something interesting could come here.
14:10.8
Although I was half skeptical, half hopeful with Pinoy.
14:13.9
And I think his record more or less was mixed but on the better side of the mix than most of the other leaders.
14:19.4
But, you know, I remember very well 2015.
14:22.5
The first time I saw Duterte kind of flirting with the idea of presidency, this is like August, July pa lang.
14:27.4
And we had a show on Tito Boy, Abunda, Lisandro Claudio, Nicole Corato.
14:31.3
All of us were there.
14:32.1
And I said, he's a dark horse.
14:34.6
Because I always felt there's something in him.
14:36.3
That can click with millions of people are just so fed up with traditional nonsense politics.
14:42.6
And, you know, it's because I studied other countries.
14:44.8
It happened in Turkey.
14:45.7
It happened just now in Argentina with the Elvis Presley looking guy.
14:50.9
It happened with, you know, all around India.
14:54.6
Narendra Modi in Indonesia was there when Jukowi's coming.
14:57.2
So, I always felt, I mean, yun ang problema sa atin sa mga Pilipino.
15:00.9
We think we're too exceptional.
15:02.0
When in fact, maraming meron sa atin na third world.
15:04.6
Meron sa ibang third world countries na nakikita.
15:06.4
Ang Argentina, Turkey, India.
15:08.2
So, I just felt, this guy has a chance.
15:10.6
And I just felt people, many people are too dismissive about him.
15:13.5
So, that's where I began to become like, wait lang.
15:16.8
This guy, if he wins, he's gonna change everything.
15:20.5
You know, the first interview I watched of him was with Maria Ressa.
15:24.0
Like, our Rappler friends did a lot to get him into the court.
15:27.7
So, and the first big event he had was this.
15:30.9
Something like yung, my president, something, events at De La Salle.
15:34.0
I used to teach in De La Salle back in the day.
15:35.5
So, Maria Ressa was the host.
15:36.3
And then, nagpakita lang si Digong and si Cayetano.
15:39.4
And I look at this guy, I said, my gosh.
15:41.8
He has what it takes to really exploit cynicism and lack of faith and disillusionment.
15:48.8
And this is after the Laglagbala crisis.
15:51.5
This is after Sapano.
15:53.3
Like, everything where Gogo's going.
15:55.1
To the guy, I felt, paka conspiracy theory pa yan.
15:57.5
Then, nalamin traffic during Apex Summit.
16:01.0
So, para I felt, this is the right time for this guy.
16:03.7
So, as early as 2015, I was saying, hey, watch out for it.
16:06.3
And by January, February, I was convinced he could really win once Binay went down.
16:10.4
Now, I've written extensively on all these issues, including the book Rise of the Terte.
16:14.7
But my point is, that's where I also discovered something about myself.
16:18.7
That actually, I care, right?
16:20.5
Actually, when I fear there's a fundamental threat to our way of lives or whatever little freedoms we have,
16:26.4
I'm someone who cares.
16:27.8
And at the same time, of course, I'm not cancel culture type.
16:31.3
In the case that, you know, many of people close to me voted for the Terte.
16:34.7
So, I don't think that they're bad.
16:36.1
I just felt maybe they didn't choose the best guy.
16:38.5
But I understood where they come from.
16:40.0
The grievance, the hurt, and all of that.
16:42.6
And the next six years is really the story of my career.
16:45.1
So, both on West Philippine Sea and both on democracy issue, I tried to push back against this guy.
16:49.8
So, by the time the 2022 elections came, and I was realizing, like, my goodness, after the Terte, it's going to be Marcos most likely, right?
16:58.2
Like, oh, this is crazy.
16:59.7
So, I said, the least I can do is to go vlogging and to reach out and, you know, hello.
17:04.3
And, you know, make, you know, you probably...
17:06.1
You probably saw me on CNN International.
17:08.7
It's the kind of, like, that Richard Haydarn, right?
17:11.1
It's like, okay, that Richard Haydarn has his place there, but he's useless more or less there.
17:15.4
So, let's do something.
17:16.7
So, that was the context within which, Chris, essentially, I became this podcaster, right?
17:20.8
I had to set up this whole thing and essentially double, double in, you know...
17:25.8
So, in your case, what was the thought process?
17:28.2
So, I gave you a very five-minute overview of my thought process.
17:32.7
How I became obsessed almost with what Philippine politics.
17:35.5
I've written two...
17:36.1
Two thousand articles probably on Philippine politics.
17:38.4
The very topic I was completely disinterested in just seven, eight, nine years ago, I would say, right?
17:44.1
I was very interested in the West Philippine Sea of foreign policy issues,
17:46.9
but domestic politics was always something that I found in the Philippines
17:50.1
that I'm a little bit too disheartened and disillusioned.
17:52.2
What is your thought process?
17:53.8
Like, okay, I do Bitcoin.
17:55.8
I do all of these things.
17:57.3
You know, I'm a motivation coach, but hey, hey, this is crazy.
18:00.2
Like, I have to say something about this.
18:06.1
Bitcoin is very related to politics
18:07.8
and it's very related to governments.
18:09.6
It's almost my antithesis to the government.
18:13.2
Bitcoin is all about financial...
18:17.0
It's financial freedom.
18:18.6
It's being a sovereign citizen.
18:20.5
It's not allowing yourself to be limited to the laws of one country.
18:26.5
And it's a big FU to the government,
18:28.9
if you really think about it.
18:30.1
And I can talk about that a little bit later.
18:33.2
yung pagpasok ko sa politics is something...
18:36.1
I've always been interested in.
18:37.2
I've always been interested in history, in politics.
18:41.6
Even no panahon ni Pinoy,
18:43.0
I would debate with people.
18:44.9
Then when Duterte came along,
18:46.5
ganun din, I would debate.
18:47.7
I was the type that I would not back away
18:50.3
from commenting and replying
18:53.6
to every single troll and basher out there.
18:56.6
And even my friends,
18:58.2
if they debate with me, I don't mind.
19:00.6
I don't get upset with debates.
19:04.1
And when I debate with people,
19:05.8
I don't debate to win.
19:07.2
I debate to understand.
19:09.1
Yun yung pagkakaiba sa tingin ko with people
19:10.9
when they debate with me.
19:11.9
They think I'm debating para makalamang.
19:15.8
I'm debating so that we can both understand
19:18.0
ano ba yung parang common ground natin
19:20.5
and where is that middle ground
19:22.4
where we can have an understanding.
19:24.6
And ang pinaka siguro trigger for me
19:28.3
that made me want to talk more about politics
19:31.0
was really the rise of this authoritarian government
19:35.8
People like Duterte
19:36.7
who was practically the guys.
19:40.4
I think he's clinically insane,
19:41.8
to be honest with you.
19:42.7
I think he's a psychopath.
19:45.0
That was the selling point.
19:47.4
Chris, just to be clear,
19:49.1
I was contractually obliged
19:51.0
not to say something like that.
19:52.7
But I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you.
19:57.7
So you felt you have to say it.
19:59.7
Call a spade a spade.
20:04.2
I'm not trying to insult anyone.
20:05.8
For me, kasi when a person is glib
20:08.9
about talking about rape,
20:14.5
about killing people,
20:17.8
You look into a person's eyes,
20:20.4
you can tell if somebody is a murderer,
20:25.0
You look into their eyes,
20:26.1
you can see their soul or the lack of it.
20:28.6
This guy does not have a soul.
20:30.9
But I do believe,
20:32.7
he believes that he is doing,
20:36.7
I do believe that the people supporting him
20:38.8
believe that what they're doing is good.
20:40.8
And it is insane lang
20:42.2
that I see so many people
20:43.8
that are mesmerized with this
20:45.5
idea na okay lang pumatay
20:49.2
kasi masama naman silang lahat.
20:52.3
Pero hindi naman na talaga.
20:54.0
Kaya nga may batas tayo.
20:58.9
people would say,
20:59.7
why do I hate him so much?
21:00.9
I don't hate him.
21:03.5
the funny part is
21:04.7
I don't hate him.
21:05.6
You can put any name there.
21:08.5
Anyone who murders people
21:10.2
and brags about it
21:12.8
is not on my good list.
21:16.3
It's not a person.
21:17.4
It's the idea of it.
21:18.9
And what's more fascinating
21:21.2
and saddening in this world now is
21:23.4
marami sa mga tao ngayon
21:25.3
ang hindi na marunong mag-isip ng tama.
21:28.6
And that's what's giving rise to authoritarianism
21:31.0
all over the world,
21:31.7
even in the United States.
21:34.5
It's coming back.
21:35.6
Trump is coming back.
21:36.7
It's almost more than...
21:37.9
He probably will win.
21:39.4
Yeah, he probably will win.
21:41.2
And he will avenge his last loss
21:44.5
and whatever anyone did to him.
21:47.4
And it's going to be insane
21:48.8
what's going to happen to the world
21:55.6
this is the problem
21:57.1
sa mga tao ngayon.
22:01.6
Wala nang critical thinking.
22:05.6
So my hope in what I do
22:08.0
is that I can somehow instill critical thinking back
22:10.8
in people's way of...
22:14.3
and how they look at things.
22:16.2
Number one, critical thinking
22:17.0
and also self-awareness.
22:19.4
There's no such thing as self-awareness anymore.
22:21.9
People are just zombies now
22:23.7
walking on this earth.
22:25.9
And they speak as if they believe something
22:28.8
but in reality, it's a borrowed belief.
22:31.3
Because they can never defend what they believe in.
22:34.4
That's why you know it's a borrowed belief.
22:35.6
And that's the sad part
22:37.7
about this society.
22:39.1
And if I can change one person's mind
22:41.1
by the vlogs I do kahit na isa lang
22:44.2
then I've done my job.
22:46.1
And that's why I do it.
22:47.3
And that is really my motivation
22:49.5
for doing these vlogs.
22:53.4
my understanding there is that
22:55.2
a lot of people are voting nowadays
22:57.2
not necessarily because they want candidate A
22:59.8
but because they hate so much candidate B, C, and D.
23:02.4
So you can call it negative solidarity.
23:05.6
I mean, that's the thing.
23:06.6
The gaslight is hating Duterte
23:08.1
but actually, a lot of people have voted for Duterte
23:09.7
because they hate the other candidates.
23:11.6
Now, the factual basis of that hate
23:13.3
is very questionable.
23:14.3
Like, for instance,
23:15.1
blaming Aquino's for everything
23:16.5
that went wrong in the country.
23:18.2
you forgot 10 years of Arroyo almost, right?
23:20.7
You know, who's an ally of the Dutertes.
23:22.9
You forgot Era Pestrada.
23:25.0
Ramos was a cousin of Marcos
23:26.7
and helped Marcos throughout
23:29.3
he turned against the guy.
23:31.6
And you can make a situational argument
23:33.5
that Corazon Aquino was there
23:34.6
to clean up the mess
23:36.3
with some success
23:37.1
and Aquino was there
23:38.1
to clean up the mess
23:39.0
of both Era Pestrada and Arroyo.
23:41.4
were half successful at best
23:42.6
but to blame them
23:43.5
for everything that went wrong,
23:44.9
I think that's really the problem.
23:46.7
this is where the issue
23:47.7
of disinformation
23:48.4
and lack of critical thinking
23:52.2
is it social media?
23:54.0
what do you think
23:54.6
is contributing to that?
23:57.1
of nonsensical information?
24:00.1
drowning in garbage?
24:01.1
Is that your concern right now?
24:03.1
So, I don't know.
24:03.9
So, what happened is,
24:05.5
when social media came about,
24:08.0
Facebook started in 2008,
24:11.5
it started to really proliferate
24:13.1
about 2012, 2014,
24:15.6
is when it really took off
24:18.1
to that next level.
24:19.8
And it democratized information.
24:22.8
It democratized media.
24:25.4
Now, when it's democratized,
24:27.0
that means information now
24:29.4
there's no guard,
24:30.4
vanguard to information.
24:32.9
you know how ABS...
24:34.4
A-papers, guardrails,
24:36.1
Right, there are, yeah.
24:36.8
Diba, ABS, Rappler,
24:39.8
this is vetted information,
24:41.3
this is accurate,
24:42.9
Wala na lahat yun.
24:45.1
information is a free-for-all.
24:48.6
nobody taught people
24:50.5
how to discern information.
24:53.4
Kasi we're so used to information
24:55.2
being vetted for us.
24:57.8
Ito na ang tamang informasyon
24:59.4
according to what the newspaper says.
25:02.5
it's not even real.
25:03.7
with the democratization
25:06.3
but without teaching us
25:08.7
right information and wrong,
25:10.9
and this is where fake news happen.
25:12.8
The time of Duterte
25:13.8
with Cambridge Analytica,
25:15.7
they knew that there was
25:18.1
to take advantage of people,
25:21.2
Duterte was the first trial
25:27.8
Ground zero, yeah.
25:29.3
Duterte was ground zero
25:30.4
for Cambridge Analytica,
25:34.0
Trump used the same
25:36.7
all the other people
25:37.8
are now using that same strategy,
25:40.2
we're just seeing it now.
25:42.1
Six, seven years later,
25:44.1
do we realize na,
25:45.6
teka, teka, teka.
25:46.6
We really have to fight fake news.
25:48.8
We can't just be silent.
25:50.0
Because do you remember
25:51.0
nung panahon ni Duterte
25:52.1
noong 2015, 2016?
25:53.8
When people were debating,
25:56.8
I have a lot of friends
25:57.8
ayoko na mag-social media,
25:58.9
it's a lot of garbage.
26:00.0
Yeah, it's too toxic.
26:01.2
Right, and they just shut up
26:02.8
rather than speak out.
26:05.3
because it was too stressful.
26:07.4
Now, the difference now
26:08.5
is because we know
26:09.3
there's fake news.
26:10.1
I encourage everyone
26:12.5
to combat fake news,
26:13.9
to call out a troll,
26:14.9
to call out people
26:16.2
that are spewing BS and lies.
26:19.3
And that's needed.
26:20.8
That counter is needed.
26:23.2
when I got on YouTube,
26:25.5
TikTok, Facebook,
26:26.4
you know what I noticed?
26:27.3
On TikTok especially,
26:28.5
and you know this,
26:30.2
I remember when I got on,
26:32.7
how much fake news
26:36.9
a different reality.
26:42.4
And even the comments.
26:44.5
it's the bottom of the,
26:47.5
it's the bottom feeders.
26:51.2
I need to be on this network,
26:53.6
this social media
26:54.4
because there's nobody else
26:56.7
to counter all this BS
27:02.8
if you look at all my comments,
27:04.4
they're all hate.
27:07.3
that would support
27:08.1
are afraid to speak out
27:10.0
because if you support,
27:11.4
you will get the trolls
27:13.7
to make you feel so bad
27:16.7
to just silence you.
27:19.4
poisoning the well strategy.
27:21.5
the poisoning the well strategy.
27:23.3
They don't even need
27:26.8
meaning people of reason
27:29.7
all they need to do
27:30.5
is to demobilize people
27:36.6
to even conversation,
27:38.5
And the thing is this,
27:39.6
but this is where
27:40.3
I'm a little bit self-critical.
27:41.6
I think the problem also
27:43.6
is a lot of people,
27:45.1
who had platforms,
27:47.3
columnists for newspapers
27:48.5
like yours truly,
27:49.5
people who are in the media,
27:50.7
I think a lot of us,
27:55.7
that's not their level.
27:56.8
We're this level, right?
27:58.1
I'm not gonna go down
28:01.9
bakit mo dinibate
28:05.6
hindi mo sila ka-level
28:07.3
that's exactly the problem.
28:09.6
that we're better
28:10.8
than everyone else,
28:11.6
we should not engage them.
28:13.0
we've left the field
28:15.8
I got bashed a lot
28:16.7
for engaging these people
28:18.3
platforming them.
28:20.3
that's the loser mindset.
28:21.5
That's the snowflake mindset.
28:25.4
and then shut down
28:27.1
Not let them talk
28:28.0
and then let them get away
28:31.0
and then shut it down.
28:32.2
And yun ang hindi nakikita
28:34.4
but that's the thing,
28:38.4
You need a certain degree
28:40.2
and strength of character
28:43.2
I did martial arts.
28:45.9
I do all of these things
28:52.6
and death threats
28:53.2
throughout the 6-7 years or so.
28:56.3
what is your routine?
28:59.3
kind of a fitness person,
29:00.9
motivational coach.
29:02.0
did that help you?
29:03.7
I know you're saying
29:04.7
dapat mas nag-engage tayo
29:06.1
pero medyo kailangan mo rin
29:07.3
ng kapal ng mukha,
29:09.0
And strength of character.
29:13.7
na masyado naman talaga
29:15.0
na-affect ng mga bashers
29:16.8
meron akong paniniwala talaga
29:20.8
that people are entitled
29:22.2
to their opinion.
29:23.8
And I really believe that,
29:25.1
that I have no need
29:26.9
to change your narrative
29:31.0
or anything else.
29:33.2
If you believe that,
29:37.7
and that's your life.
29:39.3
Who am I to control
29:44.5
That's not my business.
29:47.3
I have no need to do that.
29:48.8
when I was able to let go
29:51.6
then I had a lot more respect
29:54.1
for people's opinion.
29:55.8
when people have a different opinion,
29:57.0
I just accept it as their opinion.
29:58.8
As much as this is my opinion,
30:01.2
And when I speak,
30:02.4
I'm not trying to convince them
30:04.5
to change their mind.
30:06.3
I'm just speaking
30:07.1
to let people know
30:08.2
this is my opinion.
30:10.9
what you decide to do
30:11.9
with that opinion.
30:16.2
I don't mind debating with people.
30:17.9
It's because of that.
30:21.8
and I met this kid
30:23.9
that's a BBM supporter,
30:27.9
okay lang ba sa'yo
30:28.4
if we do a conversation?
30:32.9
Sabi ko kasi bihira ako
30:33.7
mga mahanap ng BBM supporter
30:35.1
that's willing to talk to me.
30:36.3
yeah, yeah, okay.
30:37.1
So we were talking
30:37.9
and when I was talking to him,
30:39.4
I'm not combative normally
30:40.6
in a conversation actually.
30:42.6
So I was just listening to him
30:43.9
and at the end of it,
30:45.6
he started to doubt himself
30:46.8
and he couldn't even reason out
30:48.9
why he was voting for BBM.
30:53.9
and then suddenly,
30:54.7
I found out he was INC
30:56.0
and then the INC,
30:57.4
some of the leaders there
30:58.8
wanted to talk to me.
31:01.3
And they wanted to debate with me.
31:04.5
that escalated fast.
31:08.0
but the thing was for me,
31:10.2
people were remixing my video,
31:13.7
challenging my perspective.
31:18.7
People were calling me stupid.
31:22.0
remember there was this very pop,
31:23.6
I forget who it was,
31:24.6
yung mga sikat na vloggers,
31:26.3
Marami sikat na vloggers
31:28.5
at saka si BBM eh.
31:30.3
one of them said,
31:31.5
talaga to si Chris,
31:32.3
he was talking about inflation.
31:34.1
what he's talking about.
31:35.4
The US has high inflation.
31:37.6
They borrow a lot of money.
31:39.2
The debt-to-GDP ratio is higher.
31:41.0
Blah, blah, blah.
31:44.9
so somebody says na,
31:47.2
that's a logical fallacy eh.
31:50.1
it's correct because
31:50.9
everyone else is doing it.
31:52.3
That's a logical fallacy.
31:54.8
to argue a point.
31:58.6
try to debate that.
32:01.6
wanted to debate with me,
32:02.5
I'd be more than happy
32:04.2
But there was a part of me
32:05.6
that did not want to.
32:06.4
You mean the whataboutism,
32:08.1
I mean the whole whataboutism.
32:11.5
the two rungs don't make it right.
32:13.2
Like, that's the part.
32:16.6
when I hear logic like that,
32:19.1
debating with them.
32:21.3
And I did not want to,
32:22.5
I did not want to amplify
32:26.8
I didn't want to debate.
32:29.2
They can amplify me
32:30.4
because they're posting my videos.
32:33.4
And I did not want to debate
32:34.5
because I think a person
32:37.7
which point was right
32:40.1
They just have to hear both sides
32:41.5
and it's up to them to decide
32:42.6
ano yung paniniwalaan nila.
32:44.4
But that's the point.
32:45.6
you mentioned the importance
32:46.9
of critical thinking.
32:48.2
I think the other importance
32:50.7
why would we even bother
32:52.7
some of our kababayan
32:54.2
if we don't care about them,
32:56.0
I know it might come off
32:58.7
but it's only patronizing
32:59.8
if you're there lecturing.
33:01.5
If you're not there
33:02.0
actually listening.
33:04.7
I was born in Baguio,
33:05.7
literally Marcos Highway almost.
33:08.9
with a lot of pro-Marcos people.
33:11.0
I sit down there,
33:13.8
all of these inside jokes
33:17.2
that's where you can
33:17.8
have a conversation
33:18.4
because if you come in
33:19.7
gusto nyo sa madana ko,
33:21.9
nothing's gonna happen
33:22.6
and they're gonna go like that
33:23.7
and then tapos nang usapan.
33:25.1
you mutually cancel.
33:33.4
has to come with a position
33:35.0
and even a certain degree
33:36.6
of mutual respect.
33:38.6
hindi naman tanga
33:39.7
just because bumoto ka
33:40.8
sa maling candidate.
33:41.9
all of us do stupid things
33:43.5
and politics is not
33:46.2
It's about discernment.
33:47.2
It's about judgment.
33:48.4
It's about wisdom
33:52.9
that I never thought
33:58.4
who voted for BBM
34:03.9
when I talk to them,
34:05.3
that's why I think
34:07.1
it doesn't come across
34:08.6
because I don't really
34:11.2
I think people that voted
34:14.4
that they were doing
34:16.6
or it was just born
34:17.7
out of a massive frustration
34:20.9
that frustration.
34:25.4
exactly that frustration
34:27.2
nung panahon nga ni Pinoy,
34:34.8
I remember the scene
34:37.5
when the Hong Kong
34:41.1
the hostage taker
34:42.4
and then the police
34:45.0
just shooting randomly
34:45.9
and actually killed
34:48.0
It wasn't the hostage taker
34:49.2
that killed them,
34:49.7
it was the police
34:50.5
because they were just
34:54.3
on the press con,
34:55.2
I remember that press con,
34:56.6
he looked at the camera
35:02.0
mas grabe nga naman
35:05.9
Nag-whataboutist din siya,
35:07.5
nag-whataboutist.
35:09.1
when he said that,
35:10.2
the same one mamasapano,
35:11.1
the same one mamasapano.
35:13.7
he should have gone there
35:14.6
and embraced the facts
35:15.5
and I said something like,
35:16.5
ayoko nang mag-drama
35:17.6
or something like that.
35:18.1
I don't know how,
35:19.7
I had a conversation
35:21.1
with the late president,
35:22.8
this is just before pandemic
35:25.5
I was telling him,
35:26.6
the Philippines is not Germany,
35:27.7
it's more like Italy,
35:29.0
Because I heard from someone
35:30.2
that mahilig siya
35:31.3
sa German politics.
35:32.5
I think yung idol niya
35:33.2
is like Angela Merkel
35:35.2
that kind of rational,
35:37.9
democratic leader,
35:40.0
sa German coalition politics.
35:42.5
we are like Italy,
35:43.6
we need a Berlusconi sometimes.
35:47.7
but then you also do your job,
35:49.2
At the end of the day,
35:49.7
we still have to build
35:50.4
the Lamborghinis and Ferraris,
35:53.3
I think there was a,
35:54.1
there was a lack of appreciation
35:56.3
the emotional moment
35:57.9
of the emotional aspect
35:59.0
of Philippine politics.
36:01.0
I think that was the problem.
36:02.2
His role model was not applicable
36:03.7
to the Philippines.
36:04.6
Perhaps if you were in Sweden
36:05.8
or a country like that,
36:07.9
I would say the same thing.
36:10.5
the empathy aspect.
36:12.6
Aneta Rojas was trying to come up
36:17.8
with the Lacoste,
36:19.2
are you kidding me?
36:20.2
I mean like this,
36:21.6
how not to do presidential campaign?
36:24.0
I don't know what on earth
36:24.9
was going on there.
36:26.0
from Pinoy to Mar Rojas,
36:28.2
really something was,
36:30.4
there was a disconnect.
36:32.5
they were not connecting
36:35.9
I'll tell you what's interesting.
36:40.8
is the same reason
36:45.8
Think about that,
36:47.0
yung that statement.
36:49.5
people never vote logically.
36:52.4
They always vote emotionally
36:54.0
and they justify it logically.
36:57.1
Kasi pag tinignan mo,
36:59.7
he didn't have the credentials eh.
37:02.2
He didn't have the credentials.
37:03.6
He was a lackluster congressman.
37:09.0
A lockdown senator,
37:11.8
he was practically absent,
37:13.6
didn't really get a lot of bills passed.
37:15.7
he was a C student.
37:19.5
The only reason he won
37:20.6
was the emotional side.
37:23.4
And everyone's like,
37:26.3
it's that same reason,
37:28.4
the lack of reasoning
37:29.4
that may propelled
37:33.2
is the same reasoning
37:35.5
that propelled Duterte to win.
37:38.8
an outpouring of emotion.
37:43.4
and people will justify that emotion.
37:46.0
I would speak to my friends
37:47.4
who were in victory.
37:48.8
I remember I had a friend
37:49.6
who was in victory na
37:52.0
And he was supporting Duterte.
37:53.6
And I said to him,
37:54.6
your question, right?
37:56.1
You agree with the killing?
38:01.6
pero kung masama naman sila,
38:05.0
you should just denounce your religion.
38:06.7
Nag-Old Testament siguro sila.
38:10.4
And justify any kind of violence.
38:14.4
look at what was done to Jericho.
38:16.2
Even the oxen were killed
38:17.6
and massacred and all.
38:18.6
Just reading the verses
38:23.1
And here's the irony.
38:25.0
The irony is this.
38:27.0
they were saying,
38:28.5
it wasn't Duterte killing people.
38:30.5
It was the drug lords
38:31.6
killing each other.
38:33.2
And then eventually,
38:34.6
pag tinignan mo yung mga bashers ngayon
38:36.6
it's so funny how they didn't realize.
38:41.6
pumatay si Duterte.
38:42.7
And then they'll say,
38:44.4
And then they'll say,
38:45.4
masama lahat yun.
38:47.2
tama yung ginagawa.
38:48.9
So you're actually admitting
38:50.1
that you are supporting somebody
38:55.2
actually kills people.
39:00.6
when he was still a president,
39:03.8
So there was this transition
39:07.0
to now actually even
39:08.5
gloating and bragging about it.
39:10.5
But they didn't realize
39:11.3
they made that transition.
39:12.8
That's the funny part.
39:13.8
That by their comments,
39:15.9
they're actually validating
39:19.0
should come in here.
39:22.3
because I want to end
39:23.4
on the very eloquent way
39:25.8
the rhetorical question
39:27.3
on who's the worst president
39:28.5
in the Philippines.
39:29.4
But before we just go there,
39:33.7
there were a number
39:35.5
philosophical works
39:36.6
on the question of evil
39:39.4
even controversial people
39:40.6
like Jordan Peterson
39:41.3
also said something like,
39:42.4
in every human being,
39:43.3
there's a dark side to it.
39:44.4
I think it goes back
39:48.0
who are against Duterte.
39:49.3
They're against what Duterte did.
39:52.0
with the populist leader
39:52.9
who goes and kills
39:53.9
really corrupt leaders
39:57.3
maybe I'm okay with that.
39:58.4
But just don't kill
39:59.3
the poor innocent people.
40:00.7
You know what I'm saying?
40:01.2
there are levels to do that.
40:02.2
It's not like either or.
40:03.7
Because many people
40:06.9
a better version of Duterte
40:08.3
to kill the right people,
40:10.2
if I can put it that way,
40:11.1
which is, of course,
40:11.6
the wrong way of putting it.
40:12.6
Do you get what I'm saying?
40:13.4
Like, unfortunately,
40:13.8
there's that kind of
40:14.9
desperation to our politics
40:16.3
because our judicial institutions
40:17.5
have really not been delivering.
40:19.4
Whatever administration
40:21.5
one of the highest
40:22.2
pre-detainee trials.
40:25.2
pre-trial detainees,
40:26.3
one of the highest rates
40:27.6
of miscarriages of justice,
40:31.5
it's not really an either or
40:32.5
good or evil kind of situation.
40:34.1
I think there are
40:34.8
50 shades of gray
40:35.6
when it comes to that.
40:36.2
But last point on this episode,
40:38.1
before we transition
40:38.8
to the next episode
40:39.6
and before I transition location
40:41.1
there are people here.
40:45.3
who's the worst president
40:46.4
and who's the best president
40:51.0
everything's relative, right?
40:53.7
We're just saying
40:54.3
not in the solar,
40:55.3
but maybe in the Philippines.
40:57.0
and who's the best
40:58.2
Gusto ko sa'yo natin
41:00.9
Let's start with the,
41:02.1
who's the best muna,
41:03.8
Are you ready for the best?
41:05.3
Mas mahirap din, no?
41:06.8
mas mahirap yun eh.
41:09.0
Let's start with,
41:10.9
let's start with,
41:13.6
in Philippine history
41:18.0
was the worst president
41:19.7
for so many reasons,
41:26.7
over doubling our debt
41:28.7
his last two years,
41:29.9
during the pandemic
41:31.3
and then not just that,
41:32.5
people were dying
41:33.7
from the pandemic
41:34.5
and yet he allowed
41:41.3
and were paying for.
41:43.2
our national debt
41:44.3
is over 14 trillion
41:46.0
because of Duterte.
41:49.0
yung pagka-corruption niya
41:50.3
was gangster level corruption
41:52.4
and he was bragging about it
41:56.0
on top of the fact
41:56.7
that he was killing everyone.
41:58.3
You remember those
41:59.0
vice mayors and mayors?
42:01.0
nagbabayang maghilyo
42:06.5
let's say he was a drug lord.
42:08.0
Let's say he was,
42:11.3
there is due process
42:14.1
nobody said anything
42:15.7
nung pinatay yung isang
42:23.6
Because, you know,
42:24.4
he was a drug lord, right?
42:26.5
to be honest with you.
42:28.2
to be honest with you,
42:28.8
I was a little bit like,
42:30.9
That's what I'm saying.
42:31.8
That's what I'm saying.
42:33.6
There's a degree, right?
42:36.5
but there were a lot of people
42:38.4
that were innocent
42:39.1
that were getting killed
42:40.0
and going to jail
42:40.8
because they just criticized him.
42:42.7
The Lima was a perfect example.
42:45.4
And this is where
42:46.4
Duterte started to believe
42:51.5
that's why I would believe
42:52.6
that he was the worst
42:53.6
because of the psyche.
42:55.9
that he was above everyone
42:58.0
and that he has the authority
43:05.3
Even when he's not a president.
43:07.0
Do you think that
43:09.1
is one way of looking at it?
43:10.6
Do you think that's one way?
43:12.1
Because, you know,
43:12.5
there's some people
43:12.9
who say he was fascist.
43:14.2
the cult of personality,
43:15.8
the death squads,
43:18.3
the glorification of violence,
43:23.4
Those all ticks the boxes.
43:25.3
Yeah, you're right.
43:27.0
I would call him a fascist.
43:36.3
This is senior, right?
43:37.3
Just to be clear.
43:38.6
Junior, we have to give him
43:40.8
He still has years.
43:43.1
So, senior comes in second
43:45.4
of how he inflated
43:51.0
national debt natin
43:56.8
it went from like
43:57.6
a few hundred million
44:00.2
And for a president
44:03.9
between five to ten
44:10.8
by today's standard,
44:12.4
that's still a lot of money.
44:13.5
Imagine back then.
44:15.1
that you said, yeah.
44:16.2
Yeah, that would be like
44:17.1
a hundred billion
44:18.0
to two hundred billion dollars.
44:21.3
compute it to today's values.
44:23.3
It's an insane amount
44:27.8
before he went into,
44:29.3
before he became president,
44:32.2
the Philippines was,
44:34.3
one of the most progressive
44:37.1
And then when he came in,
44:38.8
continually deteriorated.
44:40.5
But people forgot that
44:45.0
that he came on the tail end
44:46.5
of the good days,
44:47.8
Asian Development Bank
44:51.8
But that's actually
44:52.4
the beginning of the end.
44:53.6
Yeah, but for some reason,
44:56.5
it extended all the way
44:58.9
Because few people
44:59.9
care to read about
45:03.7
a little bit better.
45:05.8
all presidents before Marcos
45:10.6
or Manuel Quezon.
45:12.5
So I think Marcos
45:14.9
out of our imagination.
45:16.5
Parang siya yung Karen.
45:17.6
Let's call it Kevin.
45:19.4
I just thought about
45:20.0
the male version of Karen
45:29.9
1960s Marcos pa rin,
45:33.6
tapos na yung good times.
45:35.9
And then the rest
45:38.3
the human rights violations,
45:39.9
You want to mention that.
45:41.5
Adding that factor in,
45:43.5
and the difference
45:45.5
he was deliberate.
45:50.0
so yung tanong lang ano,
45:51.2
ano ba yung mas masama?
46:02.9
There was something
46:09.5
that believes that.
46:18.6
It would get like,
46:20.1
I think you're gonna say
46:23.7
alam mo yung kay Erap,
46:24.5
alam mo naalala ko
46:27.1
parang we were living
46:31.4
were driving around
46:32.5
with their convoys
46:34.7
the hell they want.
46:39.1
Erap wasn't even working.
46:41.3
He would go to work
46:45.5
I know that private area
46:47.4
that they would go to
46:48.2
and then it was just,
46:53.3
Work is for the weak.
46:57.5
he was just plundering
47:00.5
we know what happened
47:03.7
knowing his ultimate demise,
47:05.4
he was going to die,
47:06.5
he was going to get killed,
47:10.1
all the dirt came out.
47:12.0
So, he's on my third.
47:13.0
I don't want to talk
47:14.0
too much about Erap
47:15.7
Mati-depressed na tayo.
47:20.2
not in any order?
47:23.7
top three na lang.
47:34.7
to be honest with you.
47:39.0
what are the top three presidents?
47:46.0
or are we talking?
47:47.3
if wala kang type dun sa mga iba,
47:49.4
you can go all the way
47:53.7
as far as Aguinaldo
47:55.3
at the same time,
47:58.8
I don't have a comprehensive
48:03.9
about the current
48:04.8
presidents from 1986 onward.
48:07.6
1986 onward lang,
48:16.7
ito na lang yung top three ko.
48:19.8
in no particular order,
48:25.6
And I'll tell you,
48:26.5
I'll tell you why.
48:27.0
I pushed it back to 50s
48:28.9
kasi mapilitan kayo
48:30.0
ipasok si GMA dyan.
48:32.4
I'm going to add GMA
48:33.6
kasi you know what,
48:34.5
I know it's ironic.
48:35.7
I actually don't mind GMA
48:37.2
because of the fact
48:39.5
that she did work hard.
48:40.9
She woke up early.
48:42.3
She fixed the economy
48:43.8
along with Mar Rojas.
48:46.2
is because of GMA's works.
48:48.7
A lot of the institutions
48:50.6
and the things that you're seeing now
48:52.1
is because of what GMA did
48:56.0
was able to create
48:58.4
a stability in the government
49:01.6
which was very much needed.
49:03.1
During his time was
49:03.9
when Philippines was considered
49:05.5
the tiger economy.
49:07.0
And even when they borrowed,
49:13.1
And dollar was like 26 pesos, right?
49:15.5
Dollar was 26 pesos
49:16.5
I remember during Ramos' time.
49:19.6
He was kind of like
49:21.3
when he would go around the region,
49:24.8
And he was a statesman.
49:25.6
He was a statesman.
49:27.0
He was very good.
49:27.5
Very smart people.
49:28.6
Arroyo and Ramos.
49:29.6
Although, of course,
49:30.2
I would put Ramos way ahead.
49:31.8
And Pinoy, right?
49:34.3
You're the other one, yeah.
49:36.9
So, better than Ramos
49:38.0
or Arroyo, obviously.
49:40.0
So, the reason I would say
49:43.0
because economically
49:46.0
who had the most sound
49:47.4
economic principles.
49:48.6
Not because he was smart.
49:50.0
He hired smart people.
49:51.9
He inspired smart people
49:54.1
to join the government
49:55.2
and to do things like that.
49:55.6
And that's what impressed me
49:56.9
that I did not see
49:58.1
that was going to happen.
49:59.7
And I was impressed
50:04.6
people from private sector
50:05.8
that joined the government
50:07.7
because they wanted
50:09.0
to genuinely help.
50:10.1
I was so impressed
50:12.8
during Pinoy's time,
50:14.1
we had a budget surplus.
50:19.8
The national debt,
50:20.6
actually, I think it went down
50:21.7
if I remember correctly.
50:23.7
Yeah, as a share.
50:27.2
what he was able to do
50:28.1
with the economy.
50:31.5
was he lacked empathy.
50:33.5
He did not connect
50:35.4
But aside from that,
50:41.6
was because his government
50:43.1
opened that all up.
50:46.0
because of Arroyo
50:49.3
to lay the groundwork.
50:52.0
kept it to the next level.
50:56.0
foreign investments
50:57.4
with Pinoy's time.
50:58.8
So that's why I like him.
51:00.5
We can talk about
51:01.8
the mama sa pano,
51:02.7
many failures here and there.
51:04.1
Like serious failures,
51:05.7
That's why this is relative, guys.
51:07.8
he's the best president
51:09.7
We're just saying
51:10.1
relative to other presidents,
51:11.3
we can put him there
51:14.8
I see where you're coming from.
51:16.9
it's about the feel-good
51:19.7
international community, right?
51:20.9
And things were written
51:22.0
about the Philippines
51:22.7
during Aquino time.
51:24.5
increasingly respected.
51:25.6
Respected countries
51:26.6
and respectable countries.
51:31.6
international communities
51:32.6
to adopt to China.
51:34.0
And that is going to be
51:34.8
the next topic episode.
51:36.1
Let's talk about China,
51:37.2
West Philippine Sea,
51:37.9
and being at Chinoy
51:38.6
in this interesting time,
51:41.2
if we can put it that way.
51:42.3
Thank you very much, Chris,
51:46.1
I enjoyed this conversation.
